Random WW2 topic Free for all History thread (continued)

[Totenkopf]

Well im kinda start where the last one left off. So anyone that wants to can hop right in.



By whitewolfmxc: This thread will be a free for all WW2 topic thread so discuss what ever topic you like here as long as its WW2 or make a post in the history forum that has a relavant name for the topic you would like to discuss or debate ! pelase be noted !!!

[messenger]

This is continuing off of what discussion?
I have loadsa technical stats about german tanks :D.

[Totenkopf]

By all meens put it on the page i wanna see it

[Reeve]

Which history topic is this a continuation of? There was two.

[Totenkopf]

any of them are fine i just want to continue the disscusions we had going on they were really cool to have.

[Kyranzor]

favourite tank!! hiltler's failure in ww2 and his stupid tactics!! Russian haxxors! umm.. i think that was it so far

[FiffA]

hehe yea, hitler lost becouse he didnt trust hes generals enough !

He just didnt listen to anyone !

(am kinda typing this to jst boost up the topic :))

[messenger]

Hitler had power over everything, he even had to approve the different Ausf of tanks.

[General_Castor_Troy]

It wasnt about trusting his generals it was about the ideea that he was the supreme general the greatest of them all , of course I would not question this until 1942 when the decision he started takeing were absurd.

[messenger]

Yeah indeed, he was also paranoid to the extreme, especially after the failed bomb plot.

[Totenkopf]

And he was hella meds...the nazi came up with speed, so their stormtroopers on the front line could stay aware.

[Orrie]

Yeah, he ordered execution of many high ranked people after that failed plot.

[messenger]

He was stupid to have Rommel killed though.

[Totenkopf]

The whole fucking German higher arch was fucked up they had no room for leadership Hitler rought the glory even though his Generals had actual battle tactics and knew how to fight. Hitler just plainly wanted noteriaty and did what he wanted not what was best for the battle.

[messenger]

Yes I agree, but I suppose he was a 'charismatic' individual that wanted to be loved by his people, if that meant taking glory from his generals I am sure he would obviously hesitate (sarcasm ;)).

[burgunfaust]

Aatually Hitler suffered from megalomania/paranoia caused by an untreated STD eating his brain. Otherwise he probably wouldn't have invaded the Russia until after the rest of Europe was under his control.

[Totenkopf]

this is true...but do you think the Russians wouldve sat back and watched as the rest of the world get taken over?

[Kyranzor]

but do you think the Russians wouldve sat back and watched as the rest of the world get taken over?
Edit/Delete Message

yep, i reckon so.... as long as THEY werent being taken over, i dont think they would really give a damn.

[whitewolfmxc]

i agree with K XD they will proberly seat at a coach and drink volka while watching "London bridge is going down" Radio show XD

[General_Castor_Troy]

Dont think so .There is no difference between Hitler and Stalin .They both wanted power fast so if one stood the other would have atacked anyway ,Hitler thought it could take them out fast but he failed .If he would have invaded England most of his troops would be fighting there leaving the East poorly protected and in 1 year Stalin's Red Army would have entered Germany,Stalin was an looser but not an idiot he knew if England would fall he would be next because great dictators think the same and they both wanted the same thing EUROPE.And it would have been imposibile to hold the russians with the few divisions left on the border and the help of Romania and Hungary.The last two would have been pushed back making a last resistance near their strategical points while the germans would have fought for Berlin.

[Totenkopf]

ok lets look at this scenario (Im going to rewrite history for this one).


It 1944 all of Europe, including England has fallen to the power of Nazi Germany's Third Reich. Hitler has not yet invaded the motherland of Russia, and the last two major Allied Nations able to produe any type of a military are Russia and America.


Whats the outcome going to be?

[Pvt.Jonez]

Obousualy America will think one or twice about going to war, however if Pearl Harbor had happened, America and Russia would have invaded Germany, probally have won, however with higher casualties and from the south, through Italy becouse Britan was compramised and Italy was in fact quite weak under Mussolini.

[messenger]

If Germany didn't have a war on both fronts and just had defeated Britain, it could concentrate on using it's troops on Russia, it could also use the British factories and equipment aswell.
It would not have the problems of supply as most of it's stuff is headed in one direction, Russia would eventually fall and if the US attacked, they would have no strongpoints to start the War from.
Japan would have been able to take over much out southeast Asia and provided they weren't at war with America, they could attack the Soviets aswell. Even if the US was at war with them, they would have had more oil to use from the countries they took over.
The US would also not be able to attack the Italians very easily as they would have to deal with 2 navies, without the Royal Navy to help it, it would fail against the Bismark and Tirpitz.

[Kyranzor]

i reckon if russia and germany became allies, they could easily rule the world.

[messenger]

I think if Germany took those Soviet oil fields, they could have done in Russia.

[Kyranzor]

oil? no, germany needs people. russia has people. they could easily combine resources and win the world. with russian production capability and pool of men, the germans could train and outfit the most dangerous thing in the world.. the Eurasian Dynasty... lol

[messenger]

I dunno, I don't think Russia would have lasted forever against the Germans.

[NesQuik!]

During the war, the Russians kept on moving their production eastwards, to places like wladiwostok. If the Japanese could attack/bombard these cities, the productionchain from the russians would be crippled. The oil was harder to get since the germans were westwards, and the tanks couldnt be easily build because of the japanese attacks. The only thing they could would be using their infantryspam. But if they kept on losing territory, they would lose their foodsupplies, especially in winters. While the germans got entire europe, with a lot of farmlands in east Europe, the Russians will be lost.

The USA would use it's fleed to defend themselves, and try to use the german ISBM-tech to make the nowadays-AtomicRockets. The Germans would attack from the East into russia, and would might build up a huge fleet of destroyers & U-boten (unterwasserboten, submarines) to attack USA from the west.

I think the Aussies would have a tough job holding of the japanese, with only the desert as a natural defence. Portcities will be bombed & invaded.


But IF usa used their nuke on Japan, the war would get 'stable'? Germany vs Russia, with USA behind it, building up forces..

[messenger]

You realise if it wasn't for British bombing raids the Nazi's could have had atomic bombs before the US did.

[Totenkopf]

Thats the scariest thing about it...the also had plans and prototypes for intercontinental bombers and troop transport planes...they were planning for the invasion and decimation of the USA.

[messenger]

Indeed, if Britain had surrendered, we would probably all be in Hitler youth by now.

[Totenkopf]

if not serving the Third Reich full fledged they would control everything...although they knoew how to do science thos so we might already have flying cars:eek:

[Pvt.Jonez]

It really is quite amazing how close america was to losing to the axis, or at least prolonging the war. If a certin day on the english channel was stormy, or a few things would have fallen this way or that, Germany might have won and things would be really different and not so hot.

[Totenkopf]

very very true it was just little tiny miricles that saved the Allis from losing the war...thank god for mother nature.

[goalie_matty_33]

what alot of people dont kno is that hitler had syphilis, the orgins of this is unknown, but his private physician was interviewed after the war, talkin about how he countinually had to up his medicine, and over the years there was a contiuning mental breakdown in hitler, so this could definately have attributed to hitlers paranoia and in the end destroyed him and nearly took germany with him

[Totenkopf]

Hitler did take Germany with him...the entire country was is shambles and was economicaly destroyed as well as agrcultuarly.

[messenger]

Yeah, plus it wouldn't actually affect him as a person because he had syphilis, that's like saying that having a cold makes you go crazy.

[goalie_matty_33]

syphils in its advance stages causes mental deteriation plus there was the large ammount of medication that he was on

[Totenkopf]

Not to mention the drugs he was taking (that were'nt medications).

[messenger]

The question is, was he in his advanced stages?

[goalie_matty_33]

he was diagnosed in 37 so i would say yes it was in the advanced stages

[messenger]

Maybe, but he was abit of a nut in any case.

[Totenkopf]

Hitler and almost his entire Staff were crazy! look at Himmler's story and Rienhard Hiedrich they were insane!

[messenger]

Not to mention a certain cross dressing hottie ;).

[Zero Kompany]

favourite tank!! hiltler's failure in ww2 and his stupid tactics!! Russian haxxors! umm.. i think that was it so far

No Hitlers biggest mistake was the concentration camps, he should have conscripted the jewish people into his military as frontline soldiers, think cannon fodder.

Like someone mentioned, his second mistake was he didnt trust his generals.

Third mistake was going against the russians to soon.

Fourth mistake is he was just ape shit crazy lol

I woke up this morning and my wife told me I had a brand new car outside waiting for me, I was like, really? AWSOME! So I ran outside only to hear her shout "April fools day!!" /rant :mad:

[Kyranzor]

LOL!! what a mad wife... give her a hug for me! :D

[whitewolfmxc]

times two please XD

[messenger]

You fell for that? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHA

[FiffA]

Hahah, cant belive u felt for that joke dude... haha :)

[messenger]

Still I would laugh even more if anyone fell for yours ;).

[FiffA]

hehe watch out guys maybe ill make more daring jokes ;)

[messenger]

How about a really original topic about the mod being released when it isn't actually :D.

[Kyranzor]

how about STOP SPAMMING AND GET ON TRACK. THIS IS HISTORY DAMMIT NOT SHIT ABOUT JOKES?!? MMKAY?!

i think the french guys should have resisted better than they did. damn frenchies. but i like their tanks!

[messenger]

The french war tactics for WW2 were surrender wherever possible.

[amp_kel]

The french war tactics for WW2 were surrender wherever possible.

and then resist to annoy the germans while inside france to make d-day landings succesfull

[messenger]

Or co-operate and allow the regime to reign free.

[Pvt.Jonez]

Dont be so hard on the french (being a french sympathyser will get you shot here im america nowadays) but i still like them-a bit. And ill reiterate-french tanks were superior to the Germans, but their static defence system was about 2 decades old, and the German Blitz just took them by suprise.

[messenger]

Indeed, the Stukas also took a heavy toll on French tanks considering the French air force was hardly the most modern.

[amp_kel]

history says that the french tank crew's immediately jumped out of their tanks when they first saw the german tanks back in the blitzkrieg :D

Indeed, the Stukas also took a heavy toll on French tanks considering the French air force was hardly the most modern. how is that possible xD

[XAMOT]

The main problems with the French Tank designs were their Gear to Engine ratios for all their Tank Transmissions...... they were all equipped with the standard 1 Speed Forward and 4 Speeds Reverse!!!!

:D

EDIT:

P.S. I have an Original French Army Rifle for sale, Never been fired, only dropped once!

[Pvt.Jonez]

Also no radios!!

[messenger]

And a defensive line that doesn't actually stop Germany getting in.

[amp_kel]

The main problems with the French Tank designs were their Gear to Engine ratios for all their Tank Transmissions...... they were all equipped with the standard 1 Speed Forward and 4 Speeds Reverse!!! makes the tank suitable for quick retreats eh?

[messenger]

This is the French we are talking about :D.

[Totenkopf]

who cares about the fremch they foled to the germans so fast they didnt even know what hit them

[FiffA]

hahah i know, But the french rly had the best Tanks under the 1930`s
But the french lacked the tactical superior that the germans had (Blitzkrieg)

So they lost in jst couple weeks :)

[Orrie]

Indeed :D
They pwned theirs planes before they could take off! (I know I'm pushing it xD )

[Totenkopf]

The French...had...planes???? and an airforce??? were they those old bi-winged ones still? cuz you can tell me they were flying P-40's.

[messenger]

No the French had a pretty good airforce and fairly advanced tanks, infact they were better then what the Germans had at the start of the war.

[Totenkopf]

I'll give them that..but the French's military stratagy was to focused on defence rather than offence...they would lay and wait for the attacks to come and the Germans would run right over them...the perfect example of this is the Maginot Line, they thought no one could break through it but the Germans did...as i said Defence rather than offence

[Pvt.Jonez]

Agreed. Dont be too hard on the french. And I will say again-At the begining of the war, the French posessed superior arms and Manpower, especially during the inital German Invasion of France.

[Totenkopf]

ok ok soo ill give them credit for the Resistance force they had also...they did cause quit a bit of stress and a few shit storms here and there for the German invaders

[messenger]

The German's didn't even bother with the Maginot line, it was too well defended for their force to attack so they went via Belgium into France :p.
What do you reckon the German's should have done in the Russia war?

[Pvt.Jonez]

I would have said go for an amphibious landing in St. Pete, beat the hell out of moscow, then WIN AT STALINGRAD for god sakes, and bada bang-bada bing, its only a mater of how fast they can get the oil back to Deutchland. And yes i know the German Navy wasnt exactly great. . .


Obviously, Hitler shouldent have invaded russia at that time, it was a stupid idea. Insted he should have focused on the invasion of Britan, Operation Sealion, insted of pissing around on russia. Many have said that the Russkies would have invaded anyway, but im not so sure. After, they did sign the Molotv-Ribbentop Pact dividing poland, so they were all buddy-buddy. I think Germany could have pulled it off, as long as the Commies didnt jump the gun on the invasion. :)

[messenger]

I think they should have taken Moscow, also Hitler should have let the Tiger crews be trained before sending them in combat, alot of the Tiger crews at Kursk were barely familiar with the tank and it's capabilities at the start of the battle.
Refining the engines would have been good too, but unfortunately the design was rushed.
Taking Moscow however would have cut the Soviet government out and quite possibly destroy their will to fight, however all the faffing about at a tactically useless city called Stalingrad was quite a big blunder, second only to the Battle of Britain where the Luftwaffe never truly recovered from- sure they had better planes afterwards but their experienced pilots and crews were mainly dead or captured.
I would think that if the Germans could bring in some more Panzer's with 75mm guns and Stugs, they might have sorted the Russians out abit better.
Anyway, after taking Moscow, if the Red Army was still fighting them then they could go to the Caucausus Oil fields to get some more supplies pumping in. The Wehrmacht forces could then get back onto fast mobile combat, which they excelled at and give the remaining forces a good pounding.
Possibly they would also be able to use the Soviet factories for tank and weapon production aswell, which would make them be easily able to create massive armies of Panther tanks or even improved T-34s.

[Pvt.Jonez]

I would have avoided Staingrad alltogether, no point having Palus pissing around wasting his men in that hellhole. . .

Just bomb it a bit, and either surround it with a couple of battalions, blockade it, and have the rest of the army contonue on. Urban combat is nasty, and the russkies are boody brilliant at it. This is where their overwelming superority of numbers shows its self, in a dense urban enviroment, with bloody house to house fighting. Just cut off stalingrad from supply, defeat all of the soviet reinforcments, and hopefully they wouldent be drawn into that hellhole.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tracks-n-troops.com/archive/24th%2520Panzer%2520on%2520the%2520way%2520to%2520 Stalingrad.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.tracks-n-troops.com/eastern_front.htm&h=571&w=818&sz=83&hl=en&start=12&um=1&tbnid=gUCVmbuA9xZbTM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=144&prev=/images%3Fq%3DStalingrad%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl %3Den%26sa%3DN
17

[NesQuik!]

Hitler only sent his men into stalingrad because Stalin did the same. It was a bit of a show-off who had the best armie. Hitler should've been wiser then that.

[Totenkopf]

You are missing the whole reason as why Hitler lost the war in Russia...ok heres how it should have happend...starting in 1940...Hitler introduces Operation Sea Lion (The invasion of Great Britain)...Unknown to Hitler is the new Radar Staion the British have so sucsessfully created...In order for Hitler to Invade Great Britain he must first control the skies and the seas...Thus begins The Battle of Britain...Hitler puts Goering in charge of the air war...But Goering doesnt realize or understand the importance and role the Radar had so he focused mainly on the British Air Fields and Production Facilities...After the Battle of Britain had started taking its toll on the Germans and the British Hitler started bombing at night...this led to another huge change in the air war. A Luftwaffe bombing group one night was lost and dropped it load on the main city of London...the following night the British bombed the German Capitol city of Berlin. This infeareated Hitler and it took his attenion away from the invasion of Britain and to taking vengace on the British. A few days later Hitler called of Operation Sea Lion...and thus started the bombing of major population and the end to bombing the air fields of Britain...After Operation Sea Lion was cancled Hitler focused his military on the "Decimation of Russia". Although all of Hitlers Staff told him not to take his focus off Britain because if he did they would alley with the US and Destroy the Third Riech from the west if and only if Hitler took his troop strength away from France and placed it in Russia, and Hitler being the megalomaniac he was did not take the advice of his Generals and Staff and moved most of his military strength to the "Invasion force of Russia"...This fatal move of focus from Britain to Russia lost Hitler the war...If he wouldve invaded England he couldve taken advantage of their Industry he couldve taken out Russia with the help of more production and even the aid of the Japanese.

[Pvt.Jonez]

Obviously, Hitler shouldent have invaded russia at that time, it was a stupid idea. Insted he should have focused on the invasion of Britan, Operation Sealion, insted of pissing around on russia. Many have said that the Russkies would have invaded anyway, but im not so sure. After, they did sign the Molotv-Ribbentop Pact dividing poland, so they were all buddy-buddy. I think Germany could have pulled it off, as long as the Commies didnt jump the gun on the invasion. :)

Eh, I just said that right here. I didnt know about hitler being pissed about the boming of berlin tho. Also, personally, i believe Stalin, the Power-hungry bst'rd he is, would have invaded/ Annexed poland and completed his uniteing of the Serbs in the Baltics that the Tzar had started in WWI. Just my opinon tho.

[Totenkopf]

Hitler wanted retrabution for the bombing of Berlin thats why he focused on bombing main population not factories and airfields...vengace my freinds, venagce

[messenger]

Vengeance? Teaches them for bombing London by accident :p.

[Totenkopf]

Well the story goes the German bombing group miss dropped its load on London and in retaliation the Brits bombed Berlin (on purpose) Thats what pissed off Hitler, and started the "Terror Bombing" of London.

[Capt. Rapticon]

If anyone wants a history lesson click on this link. LOL
Warning: may offend some.
http://wwgame.ytmnd.com/
What did you expect? It's a YTMND.

[messenger]

Thats was ok but off topic.
Also I think you will find we bombed Dresden.

[Capt. Rapticon]

It portrays World War II as an RTS and well COH came to my mind as i watched it. LOL

[Capt. Rapticon]

Who is the best military commander of World War II? Mine would be Field Marshall Erwin Rommel, The Desert Fox. I mean the man is a genius at warfare. His tactics in the Afrika Korps. were just plain brilliant.

[messenger]

I say Montgomery, he knew Rommel had gotten arrogant and slaughtered all the forces of the Italians and Germans in North Africa.

[Sniperranger]

OMG Rapticon thats funny as hell!! Hitler suicided, lol. So damn funny. EISENHOWER YOU FOCKIN HACKER............... lmao

In my opinion Rommel wasn't arrogant, but he lacked the resources because Germany was fighting on multiple fronts.

[Capt. Rapticon]

As much as i have respect for Old Monty, it was actually he who was arrogant. Even his own allies namely Patton and Bradley, found him arrogant.

[messenger]

All Generals were arrogant, however Rommel was over-confident in his tactics and constantly attacked, usually with success however he did it too many times and pretty much drained his forces strength and resources.

[Jarkeler]

Problem was with Rommel, while his tactics were dominated by a high speed attack doctrine, Hitler had a bad tendency to cut off supplies and reinforcements to the Africa theatre.

[Capt. Rapticon]

True, Rommel even complained about Hitler's ways. This indicated him as a traitor though and he was forced to commit suicide

[Jarkeler]

Almost everyone of the regular German Army higher ups complained about Hitler's ways.

[messenger]

True, Rommel even complained about Hitler's ways. This indicated him as a traitor though and he was forced to commit suicide
No that was due to the fact a failed assassination attempt on Hitler made him fearful of Rommel as the conspirators wanted to make him the new leader.

[t-bone]

if hitler would have delayed on invading russia maintained his operation sea lion the allies would have never been able to get a foothold. align his rail-guns on the rusian border he would then perfect the v-3 and test fire on moscow and litteraly anhiliate any reprisals and mop up with a brigade of panzers. build up his submarines with transport protypes and land on the florida coast line set up his v 3 site and hit dc

[messenger]

What's all this V3 crap it didn't even exist, the V weapons were useless, sure they killed afew people but most of the time they didn't do much more then a good bomber would have.
The Luftwaffe was annihilated by the RAF, even if the Germans carried on their attack the RAF and Royal Navy would have killed the invasion force with ease.

[t-bone]

very true it was one of the many prototype super wpns that was never finished due to the fact that he lost the air war over great britian.Its just a theory that if he would have concetrated his air attacks on the airfields he would have decimated the royal airforce.Its true that Hitler was mad before he became dictator Albert Einstien and 4 other scientists fled the country and came to america and tried to warn us about the impending doom that they were on the verge of creating a bomb that could split an atom in 2.

if Hitler would have perfected the atom bomb he was going to use the v-rocket as a launching platform but this is all speculation on my part didnt mean to offend anyone

[messenger]

I am pretty sure Einstein and those scientists were Jewish...

[t-bone]

yes he was and so were the others that fled with him.Winston Churchill was the only one that took what he said seriously.Because of Hitllers strong propaganda no one strongly opposed his actions after becoming dictator he took countries for the resources belgium {direct trade route} france {gyros} scandinavia{ore and hvy water}.Oddly enough it was systematic that he had to take these countries quickly without alarming the League of Nations which was a joke. Because every time he gave the same response just growing pains this and no further,what was sad was the country being attacked was counting on swift retaliation that never came.

[messenger]

Yes it is indeed a shame, both France and England had useless conservative governments at the time.

[Totenkopf]

The French still are....


(Lets get this thread going again)

[messenger]

Indeed we have a useless government at the moment aswell.

[Totenkopf]

Well i wouldnt say that its not all that bad...wait where are you from?

[messenger]

According to my profile ;).
Location: England
Back on topic anyway.
What would be the ideal blitzkrieg force in your mind?

[Totenkopf]

About 3 Panzer Divsions Comprised of, Tigers, Panzer VI, Stug III, Hummel, Panthers, SDKFZ 251 supported by Panzer-Grenadiers and Heavy Armor Recon vehicles such as the SdKfz 222. And air support say 4 or 5 Squadrons of Stuka dive bombers with supporting BF-109s as support for my dive bombers...Also several mortar teams and Heavy field artillery to soften up the defences and to support the Blitz....You?

[messenger]

Well I would want a force of Panther's, Panzer IV's and King Tiger's as my main vanguard with the King Tigers rumbling around picking off tanks from great distances along with Elefants. Panzer IV's and Panther's would be the main advance force with Recon SdKfz 222's informing them of enemy tank positions.
I would have the infantry force in Hanomag and Opel Blitz, supported by Stug III 's.
There would also be an anti tank core of Hetzer, Jadgpanzer IV and Jagdpanther to mingle in with the tank force or help the infantry.
Aircraft wise I would have FW190's and Stuka's.

[Totenkopf]

Ah you oned me up with the Elephant tank i didnt even think about that...also wouldnt you want some infantry on the ground to support the armor not in the Hanomag?

[messenger]

Why have your infantry slogging it on the ground when they can get into the action safer and quicker with the new and improved Hanomag (TM).

[Totenkopf]

Again touche'...but they better move fast and have good support, not just the Stug but also maybe a Panzer VI or a few Panthers

[messenger]

Well in theory the Panzer IV's would be abit ahead with the King Tigers probably keeping up with the Hanomags anyway.

[Totenkopf]

Good because the Hanomag couldnt take much fire it didnt have the thickest of armour and was suseptable to anti-tank

[messenger]

Well ofcourse, it wasn't meant to be a tank, it was just an armoured to resist small arms.

[Totenkopf]

But some pierced the armour..it wasnt that think compared to most APC's of the time

[messenger]

But then again the design was fairly old by then.
But lets face it, APC's are often only armour enough to stop enemy infantry killing yours while on the move.
It isn't meant to stop AT or AP rounds.

[Dietrich]

Had I been a Generalmajor, I would have wanted a number of regiment-sized Kampfgruppen each with Panzergrenadiers, Pz IVs (and Panthers if late-war), several batteries of self-propelled artillery, towed (or self-propelled) AT assets, and at least a company of Pioniere.

[messenger]

I would requisition Gewehr 43's for my Grenadiers ;).

[Totenkopf]

If it was available...there werent that many of them made and they were prety hard to get ahold of during that time..and even nowlol

[nikoziara]

Well lets see according to my weapons pricing guide...a Model G 43(W) (K43) In excellent condition now a days it is worth 6000$ US, very good 3500$, good 2000$, and the 2000$ carries over for fair and poor due to its rarity, and theres a 150% increase in value if it had the original scope...so ya that sorta speaks to the rarity =P

(Source: Standard Catalog of Military Firearms The Collector's Price and Reference Guide 3rd Edition, Ned Schwing)

[messenger]

Lets face it, mass production wasn't a German strong point.

[nikoziara]

Actually it was...they just couldnt decide WHAT to mass produce since everytime they started, they ended up having to start on something else. It was a case of the technology moving forward TOO fast.

[Dietrich]

The Wehrmacht began Operation Barbarossa with literally hundreds of different types of vehicles, thanks to the thousands of trucks, tanks, and other vehicles they captured/requisitioned to fill out their new/expanded divisions after the attack on Poland and after the campaign in Western Europe. They needed thousands of different parts for these vehicles. And even their home-grown equipment wasn't geared toward sharing parts to simply supply and maintenance.

[Totenkopf]

True...the Germans had the thousands of vehicles but not enough supplies for them...and in the end the war on the Ostfront was lost due to the Germans be unprepared.

[panzerleader]

the germans used a lot of captured tanks and equipment to flesh out their panzer divisons;they used czechoslavakia tanks for 6th 7th 8th panzer divisions;over 25% of the tanks were captured models

[messenger]

Czech 35 & 38 (t)'s were superior to their Panzer II's anyway, so they started producing them in the Czech factories while finishing up the Panzer III.

[Totenkopf]

The German Panzer Troops also loved the T-34 and captured and used alot of them on the Ostfront.

[Dietrich]

No surprise, then, how much T-34 influenced the design of the Panther: fast, maneuverable, effective armor that isn't so heavy as the Tiger's, and a gun that can knock out most any enemy tank from up to 2km away.

[Pvt.Jonez]

For my ideal blitz would truly depend on the setting. Say, i was a Generalmajor assined to storm some nameless town or urban area in the western europe, and was being realistic to 1943 (sounds like a good year) and not going crazy, heres what i would like to pack on our little "holiday."

-A before hand teams of recon units an pioneers to locate enemy formations, and destroy or secure any nessessary bridges. Then shelling by 88s, pak38 or by air (which would probally be non-existant at that time). I would not like to repeat the mistakes mad at monte cassino, which the allied commander bombed the hell out of the thing and the FJs made them pay for it.

-Teams of FJ/elite kommando/sturmsquads supported by stug IIIs or IVs and MG42s, also with heavy tank, mortar and Anti-tank support in the far rear to be sure to get rid of any large enemy tanks or guns that pop up.

-Followed up by a second infusion of lesser Grenadier type men, on the flanks, supported by MG32 and 42s, HTs and light armor to contonue what is sure to be a bloody house to house battle, hopefully with the Stugs I sent in earler destroying any buildings deemed to "hot" for a direct assult.

-Finally I would establish a permiant CP, and bring up the remaning men, most likely lightly trained type of units, and establish order, defence and a casualty aid station, and prepare for counter attack!

Looking back at this, its more of an "assult" stratagy than a blitz, but a blitz only involves bombing the hell out of the enemy's defences, then rolling your tanks and infantry in (on hts of course) and killing the survivors. However, by my set date (43') the Luftwaffe was poop and the germans didn't have that kinda fuel to burn, and, like i said, bombing a urban area is bad news, becouse just like Monte Cassino and Stalingrad, it just dosent get the job done as it does in an open, country environment.

[Totenkopf]

No surprise, then, how much T-34 influenced the design of the Panther: fast, maneuverable, effective armor that isn't so heavy as the Tiger's, and a gun that can knock out most any enemy tank from up to 2km away.


LOL forgot one thing..sloped armour...the Panther even have the same physical characteristics as the T-34.

[messenger]

The Panther was actually conceived before the T-34 was encountered by German units, however it's design was heavily influenced by them after the Germans captured some.

[Totenkopf]

if you put them side by side...and look at them from every angle they look extremly similar

[messenger]

Yeah indeed, it's outer design was definitely influenced by the T-34.

[Totenkopf]

kinda off topic...but is this the largest thread on KMOD?

[messenger]

Quite possibly, not sure if the Requests thread is bigger.

[Totenkopf]

Hmmm any who since this is a "Random WW2 topic Free for all History thread" what shall we discuss gents?...messenger your pick

[messenger]

I think we should discuss the events at the Battle of Kursk and those battles that were part of the greatest tank battle ever.

[Totenkopf]

SWEEET! ok lets begin with you messenger..you set us off

[messenger]

Well I believe for a start that the army sent there should have had more time to train in their tanks.
Apparently most of the Tiger and Panther crews still weren't familiar with their tanks at Kursk.
Also I think if it was possible at the time the Germans should have made sure the engines for the Tiger's didn't cut out as often.
The Panther Ausf D had lots of problems with cooling and the drive train which had to be modified in the subsequent Ausf A, so with 2 of the tanks the Germans expected to win the battle with, weren't really in working order at all.
They even bought some Ausf F2 Panzer IV to bulk up the numbers, but again the crews weren't familiar with their tanks.
This alone took the capability of the strike force down by a small margin, but it wasn't a terribly huge factor over-all.
One of the biggest problems for that army was the fact there were still many Panzer III with 37mm and 50mm guns that were highly inadequate for taking on the T-34 in a frontal engagement.

As battles aren't my strong point, here's a wee snippet off a site I found about the Battle of Kursk:
http://zhukov.mitsi.com/Kursk.htm
The battle of Kursk was monumental for numerous reasons but will almost always be remembered for being the largest clash of armour, certainly during WWII and would not be rivalled until the Arab-Israeli wars of the 1960's and 1970's. The vast area around the city of Kursk presented itself as a target with a salient being formed in the Russian line of defence. Hitler needed a victory that would regain the initiative in the east and declared that Operation Zitadelle as it was known" would shine like a beacon to the world" and would avenge the crushing defeat at Stalingrad earlier in the year, but even he had misgivings about the whole affair. The brilliant armor strategist Heinz Guderian once asked Hitler "Was it really necessary to attack Kursk and indeed in the East that year at all. Do you think anyone even knows where Kursk is?" to which Hitler agreed with him saying, "I know. The thought of it turns my stomach."


But Colonel-General Kurt Zeitzler insisted that the offensive go ahead and he became the main avocet of the offensive. The facts however were plain to see as a large salient had been created with the capture of Kharkov by the Germans a few months previous in March and was logically the next sector in which to start an offensive.


The salient was positioned just south of Orel with Maloarkangelsk at the northern base, at the centre of the salient was the city of Kursk and at its southern base was Belgorod. The Russians without a doubt knew of the impending German offensive with the massive build up of German armour and troops around the salient and through their "Lucy" spy network in Germany and also from ULTRA codes intercepted by the British and passed on to Stalin. It was obvious anyway that this would be the next German point of attack as the "bulge" presented too tempting a target for the Germans to ignore and the Russians saw this as a catalyst to start their own summer offensive.


Stalin was intent on attacking the Germans in a pre-emptive strike but General Zhukov insisted on letting the Germans attack first and wearing themselves down on the defences he had planned. These defences were of a scale never seen before for a battle and the Russians immediately put the military and 300,000 of the local civilian population to work laying a massive array of tank traps, minefields, anti-tank guns and dug in tanks and other defensive positions in anticipation of the German attack. The minefields were specially designed to channel the armoured formations into dug in antitank defences and it was hoped that the Germans would burn themselves out trying to break through the defences.


Armour and troop concentrations were also built up by both sides with the Russians amassing 1,300,000 men, 3,600 tanks, 20,000 artillery pieces and 2,400 aircraft. The Germans also assembled a formidable fighting force which was slightly smaller with 900,000 men 2,700 tanks 2,000 aircraft. As well as the three premier Waffen SS divisions taking part.



The original date for the offensive to take place was the 4th May 1943 but Hitler wanted to wait for the new Panther and Elefant tanks to be ready and a series of postponements followed. June 12th was the next scheduled date but the collapse of the African front in Tunisia also delayed the start of the offensive for a further three weeks until July. On the night of the 3rd July German Army sappers cleared and taped paths through some of the minefields, an extremely dangerous business as the ground was full of metal and the readings on detectors went into a frenzy. This meant that the mines had to be prodded with a bayonet and lifted out and made safe by hand. Testimony to the expertise of the Großdeutschland engineers was the fact that ten men of the 2nd Engineer Company on the night of the 3rd July lifted and made safe a total of 2,700 mines which worked out at a rate of a mine a minute by each man! On the same night the Red Army captured a sapper of the 6th Infantry Division-Private Fermello after a skirmish, who informed the Soviets of the start time of the offensive which was to be at 3am on 5th July. In the Belgorod sector a Slovene sapper deserted and told the Soviets of the date and start time of the offensive confirming what they already knew.


At 14.45 hrs on the 4th July Stukas belonging to the five Ju 87D Gruppen of Luftflotte 4 bombed an area around Butovo two miles long and 500 yards deep. The attack lasted ten minutes and as the dive bombers turned for home German artillery and Nebelwerfers opened up on the Red Army positions. Hoth's III Panzer Korps advanced on the Soviet positions around Savidovka, Alekseyevka and Luchanino. At the same time at Butovo the Soviet 199th Guards Rifle Regiment were attacked by 3rd Battalion Panzer Grenadier Regiment in torrential rain and the high ground around Butovo was taken by 11th Panzer Division. To the west of Butovo the going proved tougher for the 3rd Panzer Division who met stiff Soviet resistance and did not secure their objectives until midnight.


Meanwhile II SS Panzer Korps were launching preliminary attacks to secure observation posts for the next days fighting and again were met with stiff resistance until assault troops equipped with flame-throwers cleared the bunkers and outposts. At 22.30 hrs the Soviets hit back with a fierce artillery bombardment which, aided by the torrential rain, slowed the German advance. At this time Georgi Zhukov had been briefed on the information about the start of the offensive gained by the German prisoners and decided to launch a pre-emptive artillery bombardment on the German positions.


Ten minutes before the Offensive was to begin and the German artillery barrage was to open up, the Soviets launched their own bombardment with 600 guns, mortars and Katyusha rocket launchers belong to Central Front which lasted for thirty minutes. The German response was slow at first but by 4.45am had grown in intensity. In fact the weight of shells fired during this bombardment was heavier than that fired during the whole of the Polish and French campaigns. A second Russian battery opened up but was ineffectual in disrupting German assembly areas and after the war Zhukov, analyzing the battle admitted that both fronts had opened up too early as German armor and infantry were still under cover. However some of General Model's troops were caught in the open and could not start their attack until 90 minutes after their scheduled start time. The Großdeutschland division had made the best progress advancing towards its objective of Oboyan forcing the Russian 3rd Mechanized Corps back to the River Pena.


II SS Panzer Korps under the command of Paul Hausser progressed quite well using a tactic known as the "Panzerkiel" which was basically spearheaded by the heavy Tiger I tanks followed up by Panther, MK IV and MK III tanks. By the 6th July they had penetrated some twenty miles but had come under increasingly harsh resistance. Losses were high too with the Leibstandarte for example losing on the first day of action, 97 men killed and 522 men wounded.


II SS Panzer Korps continued on towards Prokhorovka with the 3rd SS Totenkopf leading the advance and smashing all resistance to the west of the town. Their flank however was unprotected as Kempfs 6th,7th and 19th Panzer Divisions (III Panzer Korps) were stalled by 7th Guards Army after crossing the River Donets. The 5th Guards Tank Army were situated to the east of the town of Prokhorovka and were preparing a counter attack of their own when II SS Panzer Korps arrived and an intense struggle ensued with elements of the 5th Guards Army being deployed to halt the advance. During which the Soviets managed to halt the SS-but only just. This sent alarm bells ringing in the Soviet camp and they knew that if III Panzer Korps broke out, the balance of armor would tip in the Germans favor. They decided to deploy the rest of the 5th Guards Tank Army to destroy the SS armored divisions.


On the 12th July the Luftwaffe and artillery units bombed Soviet positions and the SS Divisions formed up into their "Panzerkiel" formations and were astonished to see masses of Soviet armor advancing towards them. What followed was to go down history as one of the largest tank engagements ever mounted. The Germans contrary to popular belief did not deploy masses of Tiger I tanks which made up a small percentage of the the total number of tanks with the main force consisting of up-gunned MK III and MK IV tanks. The conflict was fought at very close range with main armament and armor bearing little importance as a hit at almost point blank range would mean certain death. The Luftwaffe and Soviet air forces fought dogfights in the sky above but could play no part in the battle below as friend and foe were indiscernible through the dust and billowing black smoke pouring out from destroyed tanks. The battle raged on all day and by evening as the last shots were being fired the two sides disengaged. German losses amounted to over 300 tanks lost with the Soviets losing a similar number.


German losses, not just from this engagement but from the start of the offensive and losses in men and machine due to the extensive defensive preparations the Russians had made before the offensive had started and the immensely deep minefields which had proven themselves extremely effective had taken a seriously high toll. This along with the extensive Russian artillery and Katyusha fire had also taken a heavy toll on the floundering German divisions.


The new tanks had turned out a very disappointing show with most of the Mk V Panthers breaking down on the first day due to problems with the complex electrical cooling systems (from a total of 200 only forty were in running order at the end of the first day). The Elefant tanks although a formidable machine with their 88mm gun had also proved a disappointment with Russian infantry simply attacking the 73 ton monsters with satchel charges and Molotov cocktails when they were separated from the infantry with relative ease due to the absence of a hull machine gun as a secondary defenses.


Although German losses were quite high Russian losses were higher with the 6th Guards Army (which had borne the brunt of the assault) suffering very high losses and by the 11th July the battle hung in the balance. Things did not look promising for the Germans for two reasons.


The defeat of the Afrika Korps meant that the invasion of Sicily was imminent and units that were badly needed on the eastern front would have to be transferred to the western front to bolster the defenses in Italy. The second reason and more alarming to the German forces at Kursk was the arrival of the 5th Guards Army in the salient.


When the Allies landed in Sicily Hitler called von Kluge and Manstein to his headquarters and declared that he was calling Operation Zitadelle off. von Manstein was furious and argued that one final effort and the battle could be won. Hitler would have none of it particularly as the Soviets had launched a new counter offensive in the Orel sector. It was decided the Leibstandarte would be transferred to Italy and Sepp Dietrich would personally escort the deposed Mussolini's mistress Clara Pettachi to him after Skorzeny's rescue of the Duce from Gran Sasso. Sepp Dietrich was duly disgusted!


On the 15th July, Rokossovsky's Central Front struck at the Orel bulge and by 5th August Orel was liberated. The Germans withdrew to the partly prepared Hagen line at the base of the salient. To the south of Kursk the Russians re-grouped and by 3rd August another offensive opened up and Belgorod was liberated on the same day as Orel. The attack forced a 40-mile gap in Army Group South between 4th Panzer Army and Army Detachment Kempf. On the 11th August the last battle of Kharkov began and by 20th August the Germans were forced to withdraw. The Germans from then on would be fighting defensive battles all the way back to the frontiers of the Reich and into the Reich itself.


Zitadelle had proved a costly gamble which, if one analyses the battle, had a very slim chance of success and one from which the Germans would never fully recover their losses.


The total number of losses for the whole offensive were put at 100,000 men killed or wounded. The Soviet casualty figures were not released until the end of the communist regime in the USSR and were recorded at 250,000 killed and 600,000 wounded. They also lost 50% of their tank strength.

[Totenkopf]

Wow ok i dont know where to start on that one but wow i think you hit EVERY nail on the head...did you copy and paste?;) lol

[Dietrich]

The Panzer crews having more time to train would have helped somewhat, but what did not help was that not only did the Lucy spy ring (run by Rudolf Roessler) in Switzerland provide advance warning of the German attack, but Marshal Zhukov wrote a report to Stavka on April 8, 1943, in which he predicted that Kursk would be the prime target of Unternehmen Zitadelle.

The Soviet defenses were just too deep, their resistance too determined, and their strategic reserves too great for the Germans to have succeeded. They could have been all SS Panzer divisions and still not necessarily closed the salient.

[messenger]

Wow ok i dont know where to start on that one but wow i think you hit EVERY nail on the head...did you copy and paste?;) lol

I did indeed, I thought I made it clear battles weren't my strong point :( .

Dietrich I love you :-D.
20+ mile deep defences with hidden AT guns and AT troops in trenches and dug outs with miles of minefields definitely put a dampener on the German plans.
Their new Elephant tanks tended to get mugged by Russian's with satchel charges.

[Dietrich]

Dietrich I love you :-D.

Well, that's rather un-grumpy of you. :-P

20+ mile deep defences with hidden AT guns and AT troops in trenches and dug outs with miles of minefields definitely put a dampener on the German plans. Their new Elephant tanks tended to get mugged by Russian's with satchel charges.

Yeah, the Elephant didn't even have a coaxial MG. Some crews even tried carrying an MG-42 and firing it through the main cannon's barrel. :-G

[Totenkopf]

And the Elephant was a HUGE tank it was heavy and slow...plus it didnt have the best armorents it needed for its size and speed...they shouldve added a Rear machine gun like the one on the JS 2 ( http://www.wargaming.net/tanks/IMAGES/JS-2-side.gif ) or at least one on the Commanders hatch.

[Jason Baane]

It really should be noted that "wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, stall, stall, stall, stall, wait, wait, wait, wait" isn't generally a battle-winning strategy.

[Pvt.Jonez]

Old Monty was famous for his wait, stall, wait stratagies, although rommel was brilliant, Monty's meticulious plodding did win the North African campagin. lol However, it should be taken to account that with the luftwaffe decimated and the Germans unable to reinforce across the Med, that was what truly caused the Desert Fox's downfall. I got a bit ot there, sorry.

[Dietrich]

Speaking of the Germans being unable to reinforce via the Mediterranean, that brings Malta into the picture. The British fighter pilots serving on Malta when it was under siege said that it made the Battle of Britain look like a cakewalk. According to Luftwaffe records, between 20 March and 28 April 1942 Malta was subjected to 11,819 sorties and 6,557 tons of bombs. Hal Far airfield in particular was subjected to 2,300 tons of bombs between 11 June 1940 and 21 May 1943.

[Jason Baane]

Old Monty was famous for his wait, stall, wait stratagies, although rommel was brilliant, Monty's meticulious plodding did win the North African campagin. lol However, it should be taken to account that with the luftwaffe decimated and the Germans unable to reinforce across the Med, that was what truly caused the Desert Fox's downfall. I got a bit ot there, sorry.

Monty was also up against an opponent who was handicapped to hopelessness.

That's like beating the CoH AI on easy by turtling and then claiming that you're the best player in the world.

[Totenkopf]

Monty was a horibble General he always wanted the victory for himself and wanted all the glory for him.

[Pvt.Jonez]

Agreed. I changed my post a bit after reading some stuff on Monty, to be a bit nicer to him, but i suppose he really wasn't the best general, and agreed he was increadbly pompus and a "glory hog"

[Totenkopf]

He always pooped on Pattons parade and Patton imo was the BEST Allied General of WWII but no one gave him any credit they detroyed his reputaton and made him out to be a monster.

[Jason Baane]

I would have to disagree with that. Patton tends to get credit (good and bad) for things that he wasn't responsible for. In general, he is still one of the most popular American Generals ever.

Monty was kind of on the low end, and it's a shame that he gets presented as the best the British had; he wasn't.

[Dietrich]

Who, then, was the best the British had? I ask mainly because I myself don't know enough about the British to nominate one myself.

[Jason Baane]

I would have to say Alexander of Tunis. Here's an essay written by one of the men who served under him.

http://www.northirishhorse.org/nih/Articles/15.html

It is multi-page, but a wonderfully good read.

[Totenkopf]

Why him though...ive never heard of him

[Jason Baane]

Because Bernard Montgomery made the most noise.

[FiffA]

Yea i agree with u Baane, Montgomery was a bragging and little sissy. He also converted an truck to an tank but it was fake, jst so hes soldier could see hes a tanker ... Its stupid

I am not sure about this tho, i think i read about it somewhere

[Totenkopf]

None the less he was a complete idiot...this is my list of best Generals Axis and Allied.
1. Heinz Guderian- German
2. Erwin Rommel-German
3. George S. Patton-American
4. Kurt "Panzer" Meyer-German
5. Omar Bradley-American
6. Dwight D. Eisenhower-American
7. Erich von Manstein-German
8. Franz Halder-German
9. Air Chief Marshal Lord Dowding-British
10. Wilhelm Keitel-German
11.Henry "Hap" Arnold-American

[messenger]

Eisenhower was kinda like the Monty of the Americans.

[Totenkopf]

But he was an amazing General tho...i meen he actually cared about his troops monty sent them to their death for his glory.

[Dietrich]

The impression I've gotten of Eisenhower was that he was more of an overseer to rally the Western Allies.

[messenger]

Same, I heard he only commanded a couple of battles himself.

[Jason Baane]

You guys are being a little unfair here.

Eisenhower didn't command a few Battalions. He didn't command a few Divisions. Heck, he didn't command an Army Corps. What he commanded was the entire Allied Expeditionary Force in the ETO. So he and Montgomery are not directly comparable because of this difference in rank.

Eisenhower maintained regular contact with his subordinates, and this reached down even to the troops themselves. Proof is the book United States vs. German Equipment by Maj. General Isaac D. White in which the 2nd Armored Division officers and enlisted men are asked for opinions on their equipment against comparable German machines.

In addition, Eisenhower was fully prepared to take the full blame for any failure on the field. This is something Montgomery was entirely unwilling to do. Proof of this was that Eisenhower had an apologetic speech written prior to the Normandy landings, which the Allies were never sure would work.

Our landings in the Cherbourg-Havre area have failed to gain a satisfactory foothold and I have withdrawn the troops. My decision to attack at this time and place was based on the best information available. The troops, the air and the Navy did all that bravery and devotion to duty could do. If any blame or fault attaches to the attempt, it is mine alone.

What would Montgomery would have done? Well, what did he do when Operation Market Garden failed? He called it a "90% success" and stated the following:

In my prejudiced view, if the operation had been properly backed from its inception, and given the aircraft, ground forces, and administrative resources necessary for the job, it would have succeeded in spite of my mistakes, or the adverse weather, or the presence of the 2nd SS Panzer Corps in the Arnhem area. I remain Market Garden's unrepentant advocate. Seemingly, every Allied victory is an American success, every Allied defeat is a British failure.

He played the Nationalism card and threw a raging fit. You know what the Dutch response was to this?

My country can never again afford the luxury of another Montgomery success.

[Totenkopf]

I just dont really like him i've always been more a fan of Patton...but thats just me

[Jason Baane]

Keep in mind the man has never really done anything particularly wrong to deserve such an overwhelming hatred as displayed in this thread. He is not comparable to Corps and Division commanders because that was not his rank and that was not his duty.

[Dietrich]

[Eisenhower] and Montgomery are not directly comparable because of this difference in rank.

I, for one, didn't mean to compare Eisenhower to Montgomery (or vice versa), whether in terms of rank or generalship. The rest of your above post just goes to show how ignorant I was (before reading your post, that is) about Eisenhower and the role he played in the ETO.

Keep in mind the man has never really done anything particularly wrong to deserve such an overwhelming hatred as displayed in this thread. He is not comparable to Corps and Division commanders because that was not his rank and that was not his duty.

Again, I don't even dislike Eisenhower (insofar as one can like or dislike a person one has never met) -- even as a general/C-in-C -- let alone 'overwhelmingly hate' him. Jason, I appreciate you clueing me in to his significance in the war.

[Jason Baane]

To be fair I was meaning to hint at Messenger. I understand that may not have been clear and apologize for it.

[Sgt. D. Pilla]

*shocked face*

[messenger]

Piss off Pilla, we don't want your spam here.

Eisenhower wasn't always head of command you know, at one point he was a normal general too.

[Totenkopf]

true messenger got a point you know...and sorry guys for the piracy thing:-A :-A :-A :-A :-A :-A

[Jason Baane]

In June 1941 he was appointed the rank of Cheif of Staff for General Walter Kruger.

In September 1941, he was promoted to a Brigadier General. He was never given an active command

Immediately after Pearl Harbor, he was assigned to the General Staff in Washington D.C.

So less than a month of being a Brigadier General, and never had an active command as such. What could he have done in the 2-3 weeks, with no command what-so-ever, to make you compare him to Montgomery?

[messenger]

Rank doesn't make the person any different Jason.

[Jason Baane]

Not the point, but ok. You still haven't explained what he did to make you have a notable dislike of him. You have established that he did something you didn't like while he was a Brigadier General. So, what did he do in those 2-3 weeks (in which he had no active command) that makes you dislike him?

[messenger]

I has my reasons.

[advarntek]

well then list them please and then we can move on

[messenger]

Oh don't worry, move onto something different.

[Dietrich]

How about returning to discussion of the Battle of Kursk?

Does the name Paul Carell ring a bell? (didn't mean that to rhyme lol)

[messenger]

Paul Carell does not ring a bell, stop posting topic killing people's names :-D.

[Dietrich]

Sorry -- had no idea his was a topic-killing name. omg Just to explain: Paul Carell is a German historian, author of Hitler Moves East (originally Unternehmen Barbarossa) and Scorched Earth (originally Verbrannte Erde). His books give insight into the strategic level of the Russo-German war as well as vivid accounts of the intense small-unit stuff.

Consider this: What if Operation Citadel had achieved its intended goals? (As unlikely as that would be, considering all the advance notice the Soviets had to prepare their multi-layered defenses.) How might that have affected the Eastern Front thereafter?

[messenger]

If it had achieved it's intended goals the German army wouldn't be short of the 200,000 odd men and all the equipment they lost.
Which would have helped them keep up the pace I presume, however I know little about their formations and tactics, maybe you can enlighten us Dietrich?

[Dietrich]

Part of why Operation Citadel didn't achieve its intended goals was the extent to which the Red Army adopted Wehrmacht tactics. One prime example: what the Germans called the Pakfront, as described by former Generalmajor F. W. von Mellenthin in his book Panzer Battles:

German antitank tactics of 1941 were no longer effective, for they did not provide for the massive Russian attacks with great numbers of tanks. It soon became apparent that a single antitank gun or a cluster of them operating independently were quickly discovered and knocked out. For this reason a new method was developed, which the German panzer troops called the Pakfront. Groups of guns up to a total of ten were put under the command of one man, who was responsible for concentrating their fire on a single target. Groups of antitank guns were thus welded into one unit, the groups were organized in depth and strewn all over the defended area. The idea was to draw the attacking armor into a web of enfilade fire. Fire discipline was of the first importance, and to open fire too early was the gravest mistake that could be made.

Von Mellenthin goes on to describe the Red Army adoption of these tactics:

The Russians copied these tactics and soon became past masters of them, as we learned to our cost in Citadel. It was a Russian speciality to fortify these Pakfronts with minefields or antitank ditches, and to scatter mines haphazard among the minebelts. The rapidity with which mines wre laid by the Russians was truly remarkable. Two or three days and nights were sufficient for the Russians to lay more than thirty thousand mines and it was no rare thing to have to lift forty thousand mines a day in the sector of a German corps. During the Kursk offensive, and after penetrating to a depth of twelve miles, we still found overselves in the midst of minefields and opposed by Pakfronts. In this connection mention should be made again of the masterly camouflage work of the Russians. Neither minefields nor Pakfronts could be detected until the first tank blew up, or the first Russian antitank gun opened fire.

[Orrie]

Soviet was thief's... And thief's only!
^^

[Dietrich]

If it had achieved it's intended goals the German army wouldn't be short of the 200,000 odd men and all the equipment they lost.
Which would have helped them keep up the pace I presume, however I know little about their formations and tactics, maybe you can enlighten us Dietrich?

Perhaps if Operation Citadel had achieved its intended goals the Wehrmacht would still be short 200,000 men as well as the equipment they lost. But if so, consider how many Red Army troops they would have captured when encircling the Kursk salient -- in the Blitzkrieg victories of summer 1941, Soviet troops surrendered in sometimes even the tens of thousands when encircled. (And yet, curiously, at other times they would fight to the last -- or nearly last -- man against really overwhelming odds.)

And how could "thief's only" prevail against the battle-hardened and (for the most part) well-equipped Deutschen Wehrmacht, hmmm? I may be a fan of the MG-42 and the Tiger and Frontsoldaten, but I know better than to think that the Germans "should have" won.

(Edit: Sheesh, why do my posts so often kill threads? *sigh*)

[messenger]

You probably kill the threads because you confuse people :-P.
Anyhow, I would say another bad factor would be the Kursk salient, if the Germans had left that part alone and gone around leaving some holding forces in the way of the Russians, they could quite possibly have avoided the great defences there.
Not to mention Hitler decided to rush in his Panthers and Tigers without letting the tanks be sorted out.

[Mellish]

what i dont understand is why didn't Germany just field new troops to russia, and let the veterans fight in the west.

[nikoziara]

How would that really have made any difference? The new troops would've stood less of a chance against the Russians then the veterans. You have to remember the Russians had a massive numerical superiority, and not much to live for other then to beat the Germans. They were in essence told that the only way they got to stop fighting is to die, or take Berlin. This combined with their massive work forces to crank out equipment, and the fact that German forces were being exhausted fighting a two front war...switching the vets to the west and new troops to the east would have at best just slowed the Western Allies down, but sped up the russians advance.

[Scharnhorst]

Well had Hitlers Heavy water program not fallen through, there never would have been a eastern front, or a western front.

[Jason Baane]

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a14/danyel_phelps/1191646358030.jpg

[Scharnhorst]

Very nice, but thats what I think is fun about history, the What ifs!

[Orrie]

That would be funny if that had happened XD

[Jason Baane]

Yeah - I imagine you would think that, Orrie.

[FiffA]

Good post Jason. a good laugh, dono why am laughing but anyway its funny :P

[Dietrich]

How would that really have made any difference? The new troops would've stood less of a chance against the Russians then the veterans. You have to remember the Russians had a massive numerical superiority, and not much to live for other then to beat the Germans. They were in essence told that the only way they got to stop fighting is to die, or take Berlin. This combined with their massive work forces to crank out equipment, and the fact that German forces were being exhausted fighting a two front war...switching the vets to the west and new troops to the east would have at best just slowed the Western Allies down, but sped up the russians advance.

The German Army invaded Russia with about 3.2 million troops. In Blood, Tears, and Folly, Len Deighton writes: "Stalin called up no less than 15 million men by his mobilization order of 22 June." So, with just a stroke of his autocratic pen (so to speak), Stalin mobilized almost five times the number of the entire German Army, in addition to the troops already comprising the Red Army.

[panzerleader]

what about the southern option for germany;take out spain;then gibralter;give rommel 4 panzer div instead of 2;suez falls, so does most of middle east;germans and japs link up in india;brits outa war;russia outflanked;us/aussies busy w/japs;germans bathing in oil.ps invasion of malta was called off because of tobruk falling;germans/italy should have done it anyway