Sniper overkill in 1.4

[Lopez]

After playing a few rounds of 1.4, i noticed that german sniper squads were all over the map, killing all of my infantry very rapidly from very long distances. :sniperheadshot: This forced me to abandon rifle squads and respond with jeeps or american snipers not nearly as good. With nearly every german squad utilizing at least one anti tank weapon such as a panzershreck, jeeps quickly became useless and therefore creating a completely sniper dominated map. [knifed] The problem is the fast reload time, the increased range, and the cheap price of the auf- i dont know how to spell it- the german sniper squad.

[Sgt. D. Pilla]

Thanx for the feedback, When Kyran and I were playing earlier, we noticed this, the german sniper is a semi-automatic hence its reload rate, and the range's are realistic by the games scale...
We are increasing prices, and limiting snipers in our fix

[Lopez]

I know that the german sniper could shoot that fast, but it would probably take longer to aim so, maybe make the german sniper squads slower shooting and more expensive, i think that would work. I like the long range more realistic, so keep that.:)

[Sgt. D. Pilla]

I think we plan to keep the range, and what you suggest i dont think would work, its a semi-automatic sniper, so it needs to be fast, if we reduced the speed of it, and said he was aiming or what ever, it would defeat the purpose

[Kyranzor]

i was actually in the opinion that the US snipers were overkill, my german snipers had no chance XD, well not in close combat anyways, the US sniper spotter with his carbine snapped my ambushing snipers!

either way, sniper squads will be limited to 2 in the patch i am releasing on thursday/friday (depends what timezone) as well as the American sniper costing 20 ammo, like the German sniper.

[XxSARGE]

hey Kyranzor if it's ok with you i can edit and post the sniper files (with all credit to you and your team of course ) so people don't have to wait... I'll include instruction on where to extract the files.. and to back the originals up ( this is in case your fix doesn't just replace the original file and rewrites specific data ). So I'll wait for the go from you if it's ok or not.

[Kyranzor]

well, YOU can do the editing yourself, for your own personal use, but you are NOT permitted to post it here. it will be included in the patch in only 2-3 days, so im sure people can wait out the sniper pwnage till then.

[XxSARGE]

Alright. Other then these crashes I hear about but haven't had one yet.. you guys did a great job.. game play is smooth. Thanks.

[messenger]

I have yet to play, got work (experience) in a couple of minutes.

[Kyranzor]

thanks sarge, hope you can successfully make the changes yourself. if not, wait for the patch!

[nsysusoloman]

My com has broke down for months now, I cant play with my brother's lousy com. >_<

[Dietrich]

Playing a skirmish earlier today, I suffered heavy losses from two Aufklärer squads, though I had three sniper teams deployed within range. Because the Aufklärer squad is four guys (tho only one has the sniper rifle), it can outlast a two-man US sniper team in a sniper-vs-sniper firefight.

Don't necessarily remove the sniper rifle from the Aufklärer squad, but could it be a slow(er)-reloading scoped Kar 98k (or something). And what about giving the US recon team a mix of Thompson SMGs and M1s? Also, is the German sniper just one guy? If so, could it be a two-man team (sniper and rifle-armed spotter) instead?

[Kyranzor]

german snipers are lone wolfs.

the aufklarer has been limited to 1 squad

both team's snipers are limited to 2 squads

this DOES give the axis a one sniper advantage over the allies, but that is how it was in the world war, the germans always had sniper superiority.

[messenger]

@ Dietrich: When we finally get a model importer then Kar 98k Snipers will be a possibility but right now we are unable to add new weapons to the game, until then we will make do with a Gewehr 43 sniper.

[Dietrich]

german snipers are lone wolfs.

the aufklarer has been limited to 1 squad

both team's snipers are limited to 2 squads

this DOES give the axis a one sniper advantage over the allies, but that is how it was in the world war, the germans always had sniper superiority.

Except when Soviet snipers (played by British actors :-P ) were picking them off.

@ messenger: I understand about the lack of modelling capability at the moment, just wondered if it could fire like a Kar 98, that's all.

[Kyranzor]

lol well the soviet snipers were basically just as good as the german snipers - and there were far more of them!

[messenger]

Thats abit of a sweeping statement, on one documentry about Stalingrand a asian guy said he was chosen to be a sniper because of the way his eyes looked (for the Soviets btw.)

[Unregistered]

I really hope that you can modify the snipers later so you can afford to remove the unit cap. There really were many many snipers in world war 2, and in vanilla COH I always enjoy cloaking my snipers and stormtroopers and have them work together and provide cover for each other.

On a different note, please release the latest version to your moddb page with changelog so we can see what is new and what was accomplished.

-Dragonsdoom

[Kyranzor]

we will release to Mod Database and COH files and COH central and 1337COH etc when we get the KMOD 1.4.exe updated to include the patch in it, otherwise we would be giving them faulty mods!

it will be at those other 3rd party sites soon, with a nice big changelog :D

[rory_okane]

i have to say, those german snipers are INVINCIBLE. there's no way i can kill them... especially with the new tank system (i've sent pershings against snipers, only to have them knocked out by a shot from a PANZER 4 FROM THE FRONT!). they're invincible!

[Sgt. D. Pilla]

"We're Working On it"

[messenger]

Use Mortars, Demo charges, grenades, rifles, bazookas something shooty or blowy uppy ;).

[Sgt. D. Pilla]

LOL that was cool...something shooty or blowy uppy

[johnyoga1]

Thanx for the feedback, When Kyran and I were playing earlier, we noticed this, the german sniper is a semi-automatic hence its reload rate, and the range's are realistic by the games scale...
We are increasing prices, and limiting snipers in our fix

I am doing all unit v unit testing now, and the Aufklarergruppen (German Sniper) is way too over-powered: Semi-automatic, perfect shot sniping...

Regards,

JohnYoga

[noobishpro]

Only the aufklarer sniper seems to have semi-auto fire, the normal snipers for germans still have 1 shot rifles. Is this supposed to be?

[messenger]

Well Snipers are meant to be crack shots, hence the word sniper ;).

[Kyranzor]

well, to tell you the truth, the aufklarer sniper is exactly the same as a normal sniper. there is NO difference. at all.

other than he comes with 3 MP40 armed bodyguards ;P

i will lower the aufklarer sniper's accuracy, so he is less adept at aiming as the proper german lonewolf sniper.

the lonewolf sniper DOES shoot fast, you just have to be a certain distance before they start going berserk :P

at longest range they will only shoot slowly, to aim properly.

any closer, they go psycho lol!

[noobishpro]

really? there must be something wrong with my installing then, my snipers are like the ones in vanilla COH, they fire one shot and reload, no matter the range. I'll try reinstalling KMOD. :-D

[LtSoucy]

i did not like it at first but as i found out when u bring arty on the mapo sniper lose and once tanks all snipers are dead in tiny little parts.

[Kyranzor]

yes, snipers arent REALLY that bad overall.. only if yuo use them well and early in the game :P

[messenger]

I still use them when tanks come on the scene, that way the opponent is too busy using tanks to watch his infantry get mown down.

[Colonel_killgore]

The German snipers are very frustrating, particularly within the recon unit, i forget what they are called, because they have the sniper and another 3 soldiers to protect them, making them very difficult to kill unless you have a whole load of jeeps, other vehicles or your own snipers

[johnyoga1]

Well Snipers are meant to be crack shots, hence the word sniper ;).

You crack me up...The fast reload is what's killing me though...:-P

[Unregistered]

Real life and gameplay dont always go hand in hand.

I suggest slower rate of fire, While not totally realistic it allows the player to pull a team out before they are wiped out. A team would normally do this on their own, but the AI isnt that great, therefore realism needs to side step for gameplay.

I like the range, and the accuracy, but MUCH slower rate of Fire would balance them off. Allow for Pop shots without killing an entire squad before you can react while other things are happening on the battlefield.

[Kyranzor]

as i've said the german sniper only shoots like crazy when in close range, at longer ranges they take 'pot shots'

you could just shoot the enemy sniper - if he is close enough to be shooting in full semi-auto mode, then he is close enough for your riflemen to shoot.. Being only one man is easy to kill as well. Unless you refer to the scout ssquad with the sniper, in that case they will probably be close to you (thus crazy shooting) so possibly even a grenade could kill the whole lot!

[Unregistered]

Maybe there is a bug with the AI then? I found the sniper FAR off to the point he wasnt in view and he killed my squad in a few seconds. I have no idea why this would happen based on what you say? I wonder if the AI uses them or the reaction is different when used by the AI?

I dont mind horribly, but I found my unit totally out of range and getting waxed fast.

I'll do some more testing and see when and how this happens, maybe a replay would help?

[Kyranzor]

hmm... so they were out of sight? possibly there was more enemy in the area than you think..

i'd suggest you do some more testing, it could have been some random commando sniper haxx hehehe

[messenger]

I find if it wasn't for the current MG's lack of range, having a HMG to attack covered snipers would be an easy way to balance things out.

[Grant]

I'll test some more, Right now the AI isnt building snipers now, its building mortars. lol But it was only 1 sniper as it shows on the map where the bullet came from, and its was FAR off, I was impressed, in the FOW. But it was fast, I hope it was a glitch that happens from time to time. I will keep you posted.

[Dietrich]

Real life and gameplay dont always go hand in hand.

I suggest slower rate of fire, While not totally realistic it allows the player to pull a team out before they are wiped out. A team would normally do this on their own, but the AI isnt that great, therefore realism needs to side step for gameplay.

I like the range, and the accuracy, but MUCH slower rate of Fire would balance them off. Allow for Pop shots without killing an entire squad before you can react while other things are happening on the battlefield.

The accounts I've read of those on the receiving end of sniper fire (in WW2) shows that, once one guy got sniped, the nearby guys would hit the dirt and stay under cover, knowing they could very well get it between the eyes if they even just poked their head out to take a look.

Evidently snipers (in general, not just German or US) didn't cause all that many casualties, but they had a significant psychological effect on the soldiers who came into their sights.

A suggestion, make it so that (for example) when a sniper takes out a guy in an enemy squad, and the squad is immediately pinned; if the squad moves, they expose themselves again to the sniper, and retreating to beyond the sniper's range is all that will save them from the risk of being pinned again. That way, a sniper isn't wiping out a squad man-by-man in quick succession, knocking down guys like targets in a shooting gallery; he snipes one guy and prevents the squad from moving forward or laterally without the risk of losing another guy.

[Sgt. D. Pilla]

Wooo Hooo....I said that to Kyran once before cause I did it in my mod, but i didnt think it was a good idea, however he may now after reading that

[nikoziara]

im going to third that...it actually is a good idea...most people dont keep moving in the same direction they we're headed when one of their buddies heads gets a hole in it.

[Kyranzor]

well i can do it one of two ways:

have snipers do hardly any damage but do massive pinning effect (make ppl roll around the floor screaming for mummy) or i can have them do basically the current method where at least the troops get the chance to scramble away for take cover, while taking casualties.

remember, if the troops get uber pinned by the snipers, that means the sniper can KEEP SHOOTING THEM, so therefore they will be just as deadly, or worse.

[Sgt. D. Pilla]

Actually Kyran, While you are correct, when a squad is uber pinned, the sniper loses HEAPS of accuracy and takes the sniper like another 6 shots to kill another troop...but by then you would have hit the retreat button

[Kyranzor]

??? i didnt know this?? is there really an accuracy penalty against pinned men?

[Sgt. D. Pilla]

yeah seems to be...

[messenger]

Well it makes abit of sense as they are prone rather then standing up.

[Dietrich]

Logically, it would (or rather, should) make a difference whether the squad pinned by a sniper is out in the open or in cover (or very close to it). Hitting the deck when you're in a grassy field is different than diving into the nearest foxhole (or crater, since there aren't yet foxholes in CoH; apparently CoH OF will have unit-buildable trenches). The classic scenario is that once the first guy gets sniped, the rest take cover and basically hide from the sniper (though they usually don't really know where he's firing from), while the sniper (usually still well camoflauged) is looking through his scope, waiting for someone to poke their head into view.

[messenger]

Yes that is the logical explanation.
It's hardly like they are going to stand up whip out a grass skirt and some coconuts and do the hula-hula while being sniped at.

[nikoziara]

just to go slightly against the grain...people dont ALWAYS do as you expect...
http://www.australiansatwar.gov.au/stories/stories.asp?war=W1&id=145

small excerpt: "On one occasion he reached a German pill box and danced on the roof taunting the occupants to come out. When nothing happened he lobbed a couple of Mills bombs through the gun openings, killing some and forcing the rest, about 63 of them, to come out with raised arms."

[messenger]

Yeah but he wasn't pinned down by a sniper was he?

[nikoziara]

I'd think you'd be more afraid of a pillbox full of germans then a single sniper...but touche nonetheless.

[messenger]

I wouldn't be afraid of Germans that couldn't hit me while I was running at their pillbox.

[Dietrich]

Snipers vs. pillboxes have different psychological effects on enemy troops. It's possible to camouflage a pillbox, but not nearly so well as a single soldier, and even the best-camouflaged pillbox becomes (to a certain extent) a sitting duck once it fires and gives away its position.

[messenger]

Well atleast in a Pill Box staying down will actually protect you.

[Kyranzor]

guys enough of the pillbox versus snipers.

please try to relate your discussions to the in-game use of snipers in 1.4 post patch.